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Author Topic: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense  (Read 24726 times)

Offline Kentucky Bob

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2008, 02:20:11 PM »
Good post, Mistwalker.  Sometimes you have to use what you've got.  There are more different types of rimfire and centerfire cartridges and firearms for them than we can reasonably hope to list.  When it comes to survival you may have to make do with a firearm that isn't ideally suited for your immediate need.  If the only firearm you have with you is a .30-06 and you have to have meat, you'll need to decide if you want to take a squirrel with it.  Yes, it's overly powerful for a squirrel, rabbit, or game bird but you have to survive.  Do you only have a .22LR rifle and you see a big fat doe standing nearby?  You have to make the decision "Is it reasonable to attempt to take this deer with a .22 rifle?

I think that most here will agree with me that the firearm you have with you--like any other survival gear you have--will matter less than your skill with that firearm.  Can you reasonably expect to hit the deer in the brain with a .22 with your level of expertise?  Can you shoot well enough with a .30-06 to hit a target the size of a squirrel's head?  Your ability to shoot well when it matters will be much more important than the firearm you have with you at that time.  You will also have to decide, "Am I willing to take a chance that I will only wound this deer with a .22 rifle?

We had a discussion some time back about what firearm we thought was the best all-around survival firearm.  There were nearly as many different answers as there were members posting.  What is the best?  There is no 100% correct answer to that question.  For me it might be a 12 gauge pump shotgun, for someone else it might be a .22 rifle.  It comes down to "what works best for you?"  In a purely legal hunting situation, each state regulates the types of firearms allowed for hunting different game.  In some states you are allowed to hunt turkey with a rifle, but not others.  In some you can only deer hunt with a shotgun loaded with buckshot.  In a survival situation, I would wager that none of us would be as concerned about the legal aspects of hunting with any firearm we can scrounge.  Are you willing to face a fine, a jail sentence, and/or confiscation of your firearm?  If you are cold and starving, I'm sure you would be.

Swede asked a great question (and if I'm correct I believe he was leading one of us to broach the topic  ;) ).  So, if I intend to hunt only small game in a non-survival situation would I use a .30-06?  No, I wouldn't.  Given a choice I would take a .22 rifle for squirrels and rabbits, or possibly a shotgun. The new .17 caliber rimfires and the .22 magnum would also be good small game-getters.  As for a shotgun I kind of dislike biting into a piece of meat and having my teeth rebound off of a pellet, but if you hunt with a shotgun it's something to keep in mind. 

As all the old-timers here know, most companies make different loads for shotguns intended for different uses.  Shotgun shells are usually loaded with shot--small pellets.  Shot sizes are kind of like shotgun gauges:  The smaller the # of the shot size, the bigger the pellet is.  A #9 shot is smaller than a #6.  Of course, you can also buy different types of slugs, a solid projectile of lead or copper.  Slugs are generally used for medium to large game animals.

Some common shot sizes are:
BBB .190" (4.83mm)
BB .180" (4.57mm)
1 .160" (4.06mm)
2 .150" (3.81mm)
3 .140" (3.56mm)
4 .130" (3.30mm)
5 .120" (3.05mm)
6 .110" (2.79mm)
7 1/2 .100" (2.41mm)
8 .090" (.2.29mm)
8 1/2 .085" (2.16mm)
9 .080" (2.03mm)

Recommendations that I make here are sort of generalized, and of course some will possibly disagree. 

Target Shooting Games (lead shot)

16 yard Trap - 8, 8 1/2
Handicap Trap - 7 1/2, 8
Skeet - 9
Sporting Clays - 7 1/2, 8, 8 1/2

Upland Game (lead, tungsten alloy shot)

Turkey - 4, 5, 6
Pheasant - 5
Chukkar, Grouse, and Partridge - 6, 7 1/2
Quail - 7 1/2, 8
Dove - 7 1/2
Rail, Snipe and Woodcock - 7 1/2, 8
Rabbit - 6, 7 1/2
Squirrel - 6

Waterfowl (steel shot)
Geese - BBB, BB, 1
Ducks (over decoys) - 2, 3, 4
Ducks (pass shooting) - BB, 1, 2

Waterfowl (tungsten alloy shot, Hevi-shot)
Geese - BB, 2
Ducks (over decoys) - 4, 5, 6
Ducks (pass shooting) - 2, 4

Buckshot is a load with larger pellets used for larger game and defense.  As with the smaller shot the bigger # equals smaller shot, which are each measured:

000 Buck - 8 lead pellets (0.36") 
00 Buck - 9 lead pellets (0.33")   
0 Buck  - 12 lead pellets (0.32") 
1 Buck - 16 lead pellets (0.30") 
4 Buck - 27 lead pellets (0.24") 

These, again, are general uses for different shot sizes.  In addition to the shot sizes, there are also different "Dram Weight" or "Dram Equivalent" loadings, measuring the powder charge (and sometimes you'll hear some of us old-timers saying "high brass" or "low brass").  Dram weight is the old measurement from the time shotshells were loaded with blackpowder.  A shell with a light charge may read 2 3/4 Dram Equivalent while long range waterfowl loads may read 3 3/4 Dram Equivalent.  A higher dram equivalent means a heavier powder charge and higher velocity load going downrange.

We'll need to start another post and discuss types of game animals and what types of cartridges might be best to hunt each with.  Again, it's the sort of thing where I could ask "What's the best for deer?" and get a dozen or more different answers.  In the next post I will try to put together some lists of different game animals and calibers for them.  Any input anyone else would like to make is always welcome, and if someone has something to add that I might have missed so far, please jump in.


« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 09:48:23 PM by Swede »
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Offline Holly

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2008, 02:44:11 PM »
So many guns...so little time...:hugegrin:
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Offline Kentucky Bob

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2008, 03:02:33 PM »
That's close, but for me it's more like, "So many guns, so little money..."
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Offline mtwolfsbane

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2008, 10:42:46 PM »
Good posts everybody!  :thumbsup:

Swede asked a very pertinent question that seems to have been glossed over.

"What is the difference between a hunting/survival weapon and one used for self defense" or words to that effect.

The answer of use what you have, is correct, however, if you are buying a weapon for the primary reason of self defense, there are certain criteria to take into account.

1) Skill level. Much depends on how familiar you are with a weapon. Example: last fall a Montana Fish and Game warden was hunting with a 300 Short mag. He had spent a lot of time on the range and hunting with this weapon. Most wardens are pretty proficient with firearms. However, when he was attacked by a grizzly, he fired from the hip at about 15 - 20 feet, and missed! 8|
Luckilly the muzzle blast at that range was enough to change the bears mind.
Moral of the story is: anyone can miss, especially in a high stress situation. I just read an article from this year where a 62 year old man killed a grizzly that was mauling his son at 30 yards with an arrow from his compound bow.
How proficient are you with your chosen weapon?
A rifle has superior accuracy at long range. A pistol has good accuracy at close range. A shotgun throws a pattern of shot and is lethal out to about 50 yards.

2) What do you need protection from? If you are out in the boonies and stand a good chance of upsetting Mr. Griz, If you can accurately shoot a 600 nitro express, and want to carry the weight, I would say go for it! :thumbup:
However, we have a lot of folks go into the backcountry with a heavy pistol, (Hand cannon) and claim they are a match for any bear. Or we have folks who are seriously undergunned with for instance a 9mm and think they are also a fair match for a bear. Actually, I like to go out with these guys because as the bear is eating them I can beat feet out of there!! :bandit:

3) Will you be using the weapon in an urban or suburban environment?
One thing that is often overlooked when choosing a weapon for home protection is where will the bullet end up? A bullet from a moderate caliber like the 9mm can penetrate an attacker, then a wall, then your neighbors wall, and perhaps your neighbor! :thumbdown:
That may or may not be a good thing, however, you can be held liable for what happens to that round. Police use seriously underloaded cartridges to limit this problem. A rifle bullet may penetrate several walls, and a couple more people, and maybe a car before stopping.

My best advise for choosing a weapon for a specific purpose boil down to: what is the primary purpose? Self Defense or hunting?
How well can you handle it? Most people can't walk out to a range and hit the bullseye every time, then add the stress of a life or death situation, or a bear charging you, then see how often you can hit the bullseye every time! :smoke:

Finally, if the weapon is for home defense, there is one clear choice. A pump action shotgun. Simple point and click interface, you don't have to aim closely, multiple shots, the pellets won't penetrate several walls and endanger others, and very few sounds will make an intruder do something in his pants quicker than the sound of a round being racked into a shotgun oops.gif

Even for heavy attackers like grizzly, load with alternating rounds of buckshot and slugs. You can literally put a wall of lead between you and your attacker. :box:

A 12 gage is ideal, a 16 or 20 is easier for a light person or woman to handle. You don't have to spend a lot of money for a workable shotgun, the ammunition isn't expensive, you don't have to hit the range every weekend to use it, and if you decide you want to, a 12 gage can be used as a hunting weapon as well. Loads are available for birds, small game, and even deer sized game.

If you were only going to have 1 weapon for self defense and hunting, get a good shotgun! :thumbsup:

Offline Swede

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2008, 12:35:35 AM »
Thanks Mtwolfsbane thats what I was looking for. I posted some where that a 12 gauge shotgun with 3 inch buck shot loads can stop a charging lion. Good job my friend.  :thumbup:
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Offline Swede

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2008, 09:03:03 PM »
If I decide to beef up my home defenses what type of firearm should I chose and how much ammunition should I buy? 
I hope the war on terror goes better then the war on drugs and the war on poverty
If you dont care where you are your never lost
Im a survivor not a victim
Its not who I am but what I do that defines me.

Offline Doro22

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2008, 08:31:31 AM »
If I decide to beef up my home defenses what type of firearm should I chose and how much ammunition should I buy? 


Depends on how many "dogs" get loose.... happy097.gif
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Offline Tatonka

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2008, 09:39:11 AM »
See the above post on pump shotguns :whistle:

Offline Swede

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2008, 09:51:47 AM »
Funny you should say that Doro. Their tuned up pretty good right now.  :rant:
I hope the war on terror goes better then the war on drugs and the war on poverty
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Offline Swede

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2008, 09:53:16 AM »
See the above post on pump shotguns :whistle:
Oh thats right. I havent decided just how much ammo a guy should keep on hand.
I hope the war on terror goes better then the war on drugs and the war on poverty
If you dont care where you are your never lost
Im a survivor not a victim
Its not who I am but what I do that defines me.

Offline Tatonka

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2008, 10:02:26 AM »
As much as you want. There really is no set amount for a person to have on hand. The more you have the better off you will be in a long term survival situation. As you will need field loads for hunting game ( sm game) also.  And for combat use you can alternate the rounds between buckshot and slugs

And thats with a smooth bore barrel. Rifled barrels you use sabots or rifled slugs only.

Offline Kentucky Bob

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2008, 12:44:15 PM »
Sorry Swede, I know we hadn't really addressed the differences between defense and survival weaponry, but there is alot to cover in that area.  I was just attempting to get some basic info out for folks and we'll cover as much as we can as quickly as possible.  Remember folks, any questions you have can be posted here or sent to one of us via PM.  :thumbup:

As MWB pointed out a shotgun is excellent for both outdoors and indoors defensive use.  There are several things that you need to think of, however. 

Do you live in an apartment or a house?  How close is your nearest neighbor?  There are many different loads for a shotgun, as I listed above.  The most effective for defense against the two-legged predators would be buckshot from #4 to #00.  The main thing to remember is that even though a shotgun can fire a large pattern at a distance, the spread may not be that great at the distances you would find in your home.  If you are defending a home or apartment the distance may not be more than a few yards between you and an attacker.  Even a shotgun with little choke (a way of measuring muzzle restriction) firing buckshot can fire a small pattern at such ranges and without taking the time to aim you may miss.  To know how your shotgun and shot combination will perform you need to "pattern" it at different distances.  Patterning a shotgun basically means taking the shotgun and the load you want to test and fire it at a paper or cardboard target at set distances to see how the pattern of shot is spread out.  My house gun is a Maverick Model 88 with a 18" improved-cylinder bore (just a little restriction) barrel.  At 20 feet a pattern of #4 buck measures about 6 to 8 inches across.  At 20 yards, that same pattern opens up to more than 20".  At close range, you can miss if you haven't practiced and take the time to aim.  I chose the #4 buck for inside the house due to the possibility of over-penetration from #00 buckshot.  If you aren't sure about how much penetration even a shotgun is capable of, try this experiment:

Take some scrap 2x4"s and sheet rock and build a small section of wall.  Most modern homes are built with this material, and you'll be amazed how much penetration you can get with even a .22 LR.  Even a load of lightweight birdshot has the potential to penetrate several layers of sheetrock.  If your exterior walls are brick or log you have less to worry about, but as MWB said with most frame homes a simple 9mm round can pass through from one end to another depending upon what it strikes on the way through.  A 12 gauge shotgun firing a buckshot load of #00 buck has a lot of power as well, so indoors you may be better off with a lighter load.  A 16 or 20 gauge--even though smaller bores than a 12 gauge--have plenty of power for defense as well, but shot loads are more diverse for the 20 gauge nowadays than for the ol' 16 gauge. 

If you want a shotgun for the outdoors, consider #00, #000 or slugs for defensive uses.  In a pinch a 12 gauge shotgun can bring down most anything on the North American continent, and there are many different loads out there for modern shotguns.  12 gauge shotguns may have different chamber lengths:  2 3/4", 3", and 3 1/2".   The 3 1/2" guns are mostly marketed towards turkey and waterfowl hunting and I honestly don't know of any slug or buckshot loads made for them.  The fuller chokes (heavier muzzle constriction) for these guns are not designed to fire such loads well at any rate.  But take a shotgun like that Maverick I mentioned with a 3" chamber, loaded with a 3" shell loaded with #000 buck?  It'll grab your attention from both ends.  There are many types of shotgun slugs available as well, but the "sabot slugs" require a shotgun with a rifled barrel to shoot accurately.  Saboted slugs are smaller in diameter and weight than a regular slug, but the sleeve they ride in until they leave the barrel protects them from being deformed and allows the rifled shotgun to be extremely accurate at distances to over 100 yards.

Left--saboted slug, right--rifled slug:


There is still alot of territory to cover on just defensive shotguns, let alone handguns or rifles.  Pump action or semi-auto?  Full stock or folding stock?  Extended magazines?  Bead sight, rifle sights, or ghost-ring sights?  Barrel length?  Wood or synthetic stock?  Personal preference will come into play here.  Rifle sights or ghost ring sights are better for accuracy, but a bead will do.  Some folks deal with recoil from these shot loads better than others.  Too many have been handed a shotgun and told "try it" without being shown how to hold the shotgun in such a way as to reduce the effect of recoil.  For those who have not had the opportunity to fire a shotgun, remember these two things: 

1.  Pull the shotgun into your shoulder very tightly, as if you are afraid it will jump forward and away from you when fired.  Holding it loosely will increase the felt effect of recoil.  (Your face has to touch the stock in order to aim properly.)

2.  Lean your upper body forward into the shotgun, balancing the weight and placing your foot forward (if you are right handed with the shotgun at your right shoulder place your left foot forward).




I know a lot of people talk about how much a shotgun loaded with buckshot or slugs can recoil or "kick."  If handled correctly most people can use these loads effectively and can handle the recoil.  There are several manufacturers who offer "reduced recoil" loads that will be as effective on the two-legged varmints as any of the full-power stuff.

Like any other firearm, practice is important.  A pump-action shotgun is usually considered to be more reliable with all loads, but the person doing the shooting can still cause operator-error.  "Short stroking" a pump shotgun--not bringing the slide back fully in order to eject the empty hull and feeding the new shell smoothly--will jam it well enough that it will take a moment to clear it out.  It comes down to knowing your shotgun and practicing enough with it to be able to work it when it's needed.  The best way to become proficient with your shotgun is to try some trap shooting or skeet with it.  You get to shoot alot  :hugegrin:  and you will be using lower-powered target loads.  You'll learn the proper stance, how to aim, fire, and work the action quickly.  I don't know if there's anything much more fun than sporting clays, it's just so satisfying to see that clay pigeon turn to dust!   :cool: 

The amount of ammunition to keep at home will vary from one person to another.  For those anticipating a SHTF scenario, a case of shells may not be enough.  For those who will be shooting in sporting clays tournaments several cases wouldn't be enough.  For me, I try to keep a supply on hand that will allow me to turkey hunt, bird hunt, plus rabbit and squirrel hunt.  I also keep defensive loads such as #4, #00 and slugs on hand.  I try to keep enough of the defensive loads to load the shotgun at least 3 times.  That's my comfort level.  Another thing to think of is where will you be keeping all this ammo?  Hopefully you have a lockable storage box that will keep it dry and will allow you to control humidity.  Silica gel packs are good to have to keep both your guns and ammo safe from ambient humidity.  Fire is something else to consider when storing ammunition.  In a fire, ammo won't just fire like it would in a gun, but it will blow open--sending pieces of the hull or casing flying around.  Maybe not as dangerous as bullets flying, but still not a nice situation.  If you have a fire, fire fighters should be notified of where ammo, gun powder, primers, etc are stored in the house.

I haven't taken the time to cover everything about shotguns yet.  I should do another post explaining shotgun chokes, but that will come a little later.  If I've missed something, please let me know.  If you have questions, please don't hesitate to ask.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 01:51:56 PM by Kentucky Bob »
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Offline Kentucky Bob

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2008, 05:48:35 PM »
Ok, here is a quickie guide to shotgun chokes.  A shotgun's choke is a contriction of smaller diameter than the true bore size that is either built into the muzzle end of the barrel or it may be a screw-in interchangeable choke tube.   The reason for different chokes is to allow for different patterns of shot at different ranges.  More open chokes allow larger patterns while more constricted chokes are designed to keep shot patterns tighter, usually for more distant targets.

For newer shotguns with built-in chokes, the choke should be stamped into the barrel close to where the gauge and manufacturer information is stamped.  Many older shotguns may not have an obvious marking in plain sight to inform of the choke.  You will sometimes see old timers use a dime to try measure the muzzle of a shotgun and determine choke.  It doesn't really work, though.  Measurements can be taken with calipers to determine the choke on older, unmarked guns.

American choke names include:   

Cylinder                       
Skeet                             
Improved Cylinder             
Light Modified
Modified
Improved Modified
Light Full
Full
Extra Full
Super Full
       
The list, going from top to bottom goes from the most open choke to the tightest.   I may have missed one or two, but these are the most important.  How many pellets can you count on hitting your target at a measured distance?  This partial chart is for a 12 guage shotgun:

Percentage of shot inside a 30" circle

Choke       20yds             30yds             40yds
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Cylinder     80%               60%              40%
Skeet        92%              72%               50%
Imp Cyl     100%              77%              55%
Modified    100%             83%               60%
Imp Mod   100%             91%               65%
Full           100%            100%              70%
           
Screw-in chokes are not a brand new item.  Winchester started using them either in the late 50's or early 60's (can I get a little help here?), but I'm not sure exactly what year.  Most firearsm manufacturers who make shotguns nowadays offer screw-in chokes.  If you think it's hard to keep track of them in a single barrel shotgun, consider this:  If you have a new over-under shotgun or side-by-side shotgun, you can put two different chokes in so that you can make that second shot pattern a little further out in case you've missed the first or are shooting doubles.




In the photo above you can see the different chokes available for this over and under shotgun and the wrench designed to insert and remove them.

Finally, some people curse them, some people praise them....POLY CHOKES!  An adjustable choke installed on the muzzle of a shotgun that can be adjusted for different uses.  I always feel a bit of nostalgia when I see an old shotgun with a Poly-Choke installed.  They may be ugly to some, but usually seeing a Poly Choke on an old shotgun means that shotgun got to see some use!  Many of the Poly Chokes were also compensated (had slits cut into the side) to reduce recoil.

This is a photo of an old Poly Choke on an Ithaca Model 37 shotgun:




Ok, I hope this helps some of those who haven't fooled around alot with shotguns to understand about shotgun chokes.  In the last post we were discussing shotguns for defense, and when it comes down to it most of those with a fixed choke that are meant to be used defensively will have Improved Cylinder chokes.  As I said in the last post, you should pattern your shotgun--preferably with several different loads and brands--in order to determine what you can expect from it.


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Offline mtwolfsbane

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2008, 12:01:33 AM »
Swede, as to how much ammunition to have on hand, I prefer to have a couple boxes (20 rounds) of several sizes. Birdshot in #6, buck, #2, t-shot, and slugs.
I figure 100 rounds are enough to either get you in trouble, or get you out of it. :grin:

If you are looking for a purely defensive weapon, a 12 gage riot gun with a folding stock loaded with #2 or #4 shot is very persuasive as it will do a lot of damage at close range on a thin skinned /light boned opponent like a human. These come with an open choke for maximum spread at close range.

To those who are not really familiar with firearms, a riot gun is so called because it is the heavy weapon issued to police officers. It is not made for hunting or survival, it is a purely defensive weapon. Short barrel, usually with a pistol grip,(a folding stock will help control recoil), usually carry 5 rounds in the magazine.

Kentucky Bob is correct about chokes, but his discussion is geared toward hunting weapons. Self defense is more about getting a hit on a target. Patterning is great for turkey hunting, or waterfowl where you are shooting up to 40 yards, but when the range is measured in feet, the term "spray and pray" comes in.  :guns:

In the point blank range of fighting in the confines of a living room, patterning is not as important as it is at distance. When you are only shooting a maximum of 20 feet, that is only 6 yards, and most rooms aren't that big.
A shotgun you can hunt with has a longer barrel, full stock, more accurate and versatile than a riot gun. I classify them in a different category. They fire the same rounds, using the same mechanisms and physics, but a hunting or sporting weapon is harder to handle in close situations.

While I am a huge proponent of being used to the weapon, and practice, I would rather have something that anyone who is in danger could fire with a better than average chance of dissuading an attacker.

Pistols are fine as a weapon. They are convenient, fast shooting, acceptably accurate, but they need a lot of practice to use efficiently.  :thumbdown:

I do have an experts medal for handguns, but I would never choose it for situations where the target is uncertain such as in bad light. One problem with popular Semi auto handguns is that it is easy to fire several rounds quickly, whether you want to or not. I have seen people fire the first round into the target and the next 2 into the sky.  :nop:

It takes a lot of practice to use a handgun efficiently.

A revolver is easier as you have to make a serious effort to pull the trigger in double action, or cock the hammer each shot in a single action mode. They are usually more accurate than a semi-auto, and chambered for heavier rounds. They are more versatile as a hunting weapon and can be a very serious weapon.
However, that power translates into collateral damage when the round passes through or misses the target in a close fight.

Rifles are superb for hunting. Accurate, come in all calibers for all occasions. However, they are hard to maneuver in close situations. They are longer, and it can take time to load if you have a bolt action. Lever actions are shorter, faster to handle, good knock down power, but not something I would want to try to defend myself with at 2:00 AM.

You use what you have, but in a purely defensive situation at point blank range, a riot gun, no choke, will blow big holes in your attacker. A pistol round will not knock down an attacker unless you hit a major bone as the round will pass through and leave a small hole with some damage. You need precision to hit vital areas like the heart or brain.

A rifle at close range is worse as the bullet won't have time to expand properly. They are designed to penetrate heavier animal mass and mushroom to transfer kinetic energy into the target in the form of Hydrostatic shock causing organ damage and possibly stopping the heart through shock alone.

A shotgun will make BIG holes in the target 8|

You do not have to precisely hit a spot to cause a lot of damage. A shot that hits with only half of its pellets could still take off an arm or leg or damage it where the attacker is effectively removed from the fight.

As this thread is dedicated to people with little or no knowledge of weapons, my baseline is the weapon that is simplest to just pick up and fire with minimal training.  :thumbsup:

Everyone has preferences with weapons, they are a very personal choice. I do reccomend taking classes for anyone who is thinking of purchasing any weapon for not only their own safety, but for the safety of those you protect. :heart:

Survival weapons, hunting weapons, offensive weapons, and firearms for just pleasure shooting are all part of the equation, but if you are just at the level of home defense, a riot gun is hard to beat.

It is hard to absorb all the information available from a few posts,  :dribble: but this is one of the best tutorials I have ever seen on the subject matter.
Kudos to all the posters. :thumbsup:
Thanks especially to Kentucky Bob, that is a lot of writing pal!! :cool:

I surrender the soapbox to the next participant. :no1:
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 09:51:43 PM by Swede »

Offline Swede

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2008, 12:24:43 AM »
Excellent   :clap:    :arigato:
I hope the war on terror goes better then the war on drugs and the war on poverty
If you dont care where you are your never lost
Im a survivor not a victim
Its not who I am but what I do that defines me.

Offline Swede

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2008, 12:40:13 AM »
Does firearm ownership out weigh the good from the bad? By this I mean is the bad things like inner city violence and accidental deaths out weigh the privilege of gun ownership?
I hope the war on terror goes better then the war on drugs and the war on poverty
If you dont care where you are your never lost
Im a survivor not a victim
Its not who I am but what I do that defines me.

Offline Holly

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2008, 06:52:16 AM »
"Guns don't kill people.  People kill people."

People are going to kill each other with or without guns.  Look what Cain did to Abel.  I think if we looked at the statistics of accidental shooting deaths against the number of responsible gun owners, the ratio would be pretty low.  I don't think it's fair to throw in the numbers from gang violence because if it wasn't guns, it would be knives.  Shall we ban all the knives?  And if it wasn't knives, it would be baseball bats and car antennas and chains and broken bottles.  Shall we ban all those things too?  The problem isn't with guns, it's with society itself.  We need to stop spoiling criminals and quit making it so easy for them and maybe we'd have less violence.  I don't know, it's just an idea. :P
"Wherever you go, go with all of your heart." ~ Confucius

Offline Holly

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2008, 07:03:41 AM »
According to reports from the National Safety Council:

http://www.nssf.org/news/PR_idx.cfm?AoI=generic&PRloc=common/PR/&PR=120704.cfm

To: ALL MEDIA
For Immediate Release
December 7, 2004
For more information contact:

Steve Wagner
(203) 426-1320

Accidental Firearm-related Fatalities Drop to All-time Low

NEWTOWN, Conn.--A report from the National Safety Council shows that accidental firearm-related fatalities continue to decline and are at the lowest level in the history of record keeping. Statistics in the council's "Injury Facts 2004" reveal a 54 percent decrease over a 10-year period ending in 2003.

Last year, 101,537 U.S. residents died in accidents of all types. Less than one percent, 700, involved firearms. The most common deadly accidents involved motor vehicles, falls and poisonings, claiming 72 percent of all accidental deaths.

"The continuing decline is good news that's attributable to a number of factors, but certainly the overarching theme is increased awareness of gun safety and responsibility," said Doug Painter, president of the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), the trade association for the firearm industry. NSSF directs a number of initiatives focusing on safety. The most visible is Project ChildSafe , which, in cooperation with the U.S. Department of Justice, has distributed more than 20 million free gun safety information kits, including gun locks, across the country.

NSSF also distributes safety literature and videos that emphasize outreach to schools. Additional support is provided for hunter safety programs. Learn more at www.nssf.org or 203-426-1320.

Many other organizations, most notably the National Rifle Association, also effectively promote gun safety.

Painter added that NSSF, on behalf of the firearm industry, is committed to working toward continuing the downward trend in accidental firearm-related fatalities.

Other new findings from the National Safety Council include:

Accidental firearm-related fatalities have been consistently decreasing for many years
Preliminary statistics show accidental firearm-related fatalities declined by 13 percent between 2002 and 2003
Over the past seven years, accidental firearm-related fatalities among children (under 14) decreased 60 percent. Firearms are involved in less than two percent of accidental fatalities among children
Firearms are involved in less than one percent of all accidental fatalities
NSSF, formed in 1961, is the trade association for the firearm industry. It directs a variety of outreach programs to promote greater participation and better understanding of shooting sports, emphasizing safe and responsible ownership of firearms. For further information, visit www.nssf.org.

 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 09:54:35 PM by Swede »
"Wherever you go, go with all of your heart." ~ Confucius

Offline Kentucky Bob

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2008, 07:18:33 AM »
Does firearm ownership out weigh the good from the bad? By this I mean is the bad things like inner city violence and accidental deaths out weigh the privilege of gun ownership?

This can degenerate into an arguement very quickly.  It will come down to who you ask.  On one hand, there are those who will point out the numbers of murders committed each year with firearms.  The violent crime rate in the United States has been steadily dropping since 1994, jumped back up a little in 2006 and began falling again. 

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_01.html

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance.htm#Crime

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict.htm

Well over 50% of all fireams-related deaths in the U.S. are suicides:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict.htm

There is no doubt that many in the U.S. die from firearms accidents as well.  Those numbers have also been dropping as well.  Firearms accidental deaths are down 89% among children since 1975, are down to an all time annual low for the U.S. with 0.2 per 100,000 population which is down 94% since the all-time high in 1904.  Firearms are involved in 0.6% of accidental deaths nationally compared to:

motor vehicles (39%),
poisoning (18%),
falls (16%),
suffocation (5%),
drowning (2.9%),
fires (2.8%),
medical mistakes (2.2%),
environmental factors (1.2%),
and bicycles and tricycles (0.7%).

Among children: motor vehicles (45%), suffocation (18%), drowning (14%), fires (9%), bicycles and tricycles (2.4%), falls (2%), poisoning (1.6%),environmental factors (1.5%), and medical mistakes (0.8%).

You chances are greater of dying from a medical mistake than from a firearms accident.  Guns don't kill people, doctors do!   scared011.gif
 
www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars   

There are many who will tell you that on the other hand, according to a study by Professor Gary Kleck, firearms are used defensively or to prevent crime from 800,000 up to 2 million times per year.  Those figures are not as concrete as those above, and may well be double or more the actual number.   Many cite problems with the type of survey used.  Another survey conducted by the U.S. Dept of Justice estimated an annual 1.5 million defensive uses.  The vast majority of these do not involve the firearm being discharged, that the presence of the firearm alone was enough to deter the criminal.  There are several studies that I have links to:


http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/165476.txt

http://saf.org/LawReviews/SouthwickJr1.htm

http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7998641

If we take the lowest survey number I've seen of 64,615 defensive gun uses (DGU) per year, they greatly outweigh the number of firearms murders, suicides, and accidents reported every year.  Now, again I have to say that the response you get to this question will be dependent upon who you ask.  People will continue to murder each other with or without guns.  Suicides will continue with or without guns.  When we look at inner-city violence, how much of it is attributable to gang or drug violence?  Gun ownership is at an all-time high and rising by about 4.5 million per year ( www.atf.gov/firearms/stats/index.htm ) while our firearms crime rates have fallen  ( http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm ). 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 09:56:18 PM by Swede »
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Offline Kentucky Bob

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Re: A Beginner's Guide to Firearms For Survival, Hunting and Defense
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2008, 07:30:13 AM »
Looks as if Holly is on the ball already!  Good work, Holly!  :thumbup:
"Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar." - Mark Twain    :cigar: 

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