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Author Topic: Handgun thoughts  (Read 38178 times)

Offline Holly

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2010, 07:33:55 PM »
My wife doesn't like the idea either. Safety is our #1 concern. It will at all times be put up and out of site with lock and key.

That's good 2 cents. Better to see that people care than to see people not care. Thanks Holly.

I know you and your wife will be good stewards, Bushwacker.  :yes:  I just know kids too, and believe me...if there is a way to get into a locked cabinet, a kid will find it.  My brother and I knew exactly where our dad kept all his cigars and girlie magazines, and where our mom kept her locked diary.  We picked that lock in two seconds flat.  :rofl:
"Wherever you go, go with all of your heart." ~ Confucius

Offline Kentucky Bob

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2010, 07:38:21 PM »
I know you and your wife will be good stewards, Bushwacker.  :yes:  I just know kids too, and believe me...if there is a way to get into a locked cabinet, a kid will find it.  My brother and I knew exactly where our dad kept all his cigars and girlie magazines, and where our mom kept her locked diary.  We picked that lock in two seconds flat.  :rofl:

Sounds like your dad would have been right at home in the ol' Man Cave!
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Offline Holly

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2010, 07:43:52 PM »
You guys would LOVE my dad.  He really is Jeremiah Johnson.  Dad is the coolest, smartest, most patient man in the whole world.  He is my hero.  :yes: 
"Wherever you go, go with all of your heart." ~ Confucius

Offline razor sharp

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2010, 07:54:45 PM »
just going to throw in my 2 cents there OFG, ive had my permit for around 15 years now and ive carried a few. balistically the 40 is awsome, it was the first round to beat the 357 mag. in one shot stops from actuall shootings after the 357. held that record for over 30 years. ive carried a full sized 1911 45 for most the years and will always be a huge fan of the .45. for a novice or beginner a .45 might be slower to recover from for follow up shots but with some practice it becomes easy as pie.
 im not a fan of the 9mm but it is cheap to shoot a lot and the more you shoot the better you will be so 2 quick 9mm in the center mass will always be better than1 .45 neer miss. and the newer 9mm self defence rounds are quite good now, they expand reliably and dont plug up with clothing as easally as they used to.
 as far as guns go smaller = less rounds so if i had to carry less rounds id want big bullets. but thats just me. i have a s&w 908 that shoots super great, reliable and a dream to carry after carrying a full sized 1911 for years. the ive always liked glocks for there simplicity and reliability but the grip angle, and feel just never suited me(or the triggers)  s&w fixed everything about the glocks i didnt like with the m@p series...well except for the trigger.
 there are a lot of good guns out there. the best advice i can give you is to hold  or shoot as many different ones in as many calibers as you can. even if you cant shoot it hold it in your hand and see how it feels, then close your eyes and point it at a wall like your going to shoot it. then open your eyes, see if the sights are lined up with your eye and not tilted wildly up or down. do it a couple times. if it dosnt point natural to you then id move on to another. if you want to shoot my 9mm or my 45 pm me, we will get together and shoot sometime
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Offline Kentucky Bob

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2010, 08:48:12 PM »
Good advice, Razor.  I feel the same way about the Glock grip angle, it seems less pronounced on the more compact versions but it's still there.  The M&P really did grab my attention with that grip and the interchangeable inserts.
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Offline razor sharp

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2010, 08:54:52 PM »
Good advice, Razor.  I feel the same way about the Glock grip angle, it seems less pronounced on the more compact versions but it's still there.  The M&P really did grab my attention with that grip and the interchangeable inserts.
my next handgun is going to be a m@p compact in 40 with the manual safty. just love the way it feels in my hand.
Those that give up liberty for safety deserve neither.

i dont know which i like better, a sunrise or a sunset, but any day i get to see both is a good day.

The more you know.....the less you need

Offline fastmover

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Re: Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2010, 10:49:08 PM »
I have a compact 9mm and 40 cal both M&P I switched from glock to the M&P and love it. For cc I still grab my j frame and stick in my pocket with a 5 round speed clip in my other pocket. So far that is the best carry format that fits me. My 38 goes where I go.

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Offline Unca Walt

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2010, 07:59:11 AM »
I completed my CCW course last weekend and am considering a handgun.  
I love the durability and reliabilty of the Glock handguns, right now considering either a Glock 19 (9mm) or Glock 20 (10mm).
I do plan to shoot both and a few others before making any decision.  
I welcome any thoughts and comments.

OFG:  If yer gonna get a Glock, get a .40...

Now, as a multi-Glock owner, I find it necessary to tell you sumpin' about Glocks that ain't so hot.  There is even a phrase you can Google:

"Glock Kaboom" <-- there's all kindsa info about it.  Here is a twenny second movie showing a KABOOM.  Click on the "Watch it on YouTube" line...





Glocks all over have gone KABOOM.  They are, for some reason, VERY unhappy with reloads.  EVERY shot you take with reloads is a crap-shoot.  And there is NO WAY anyone but, say, Bill Gates of Microsoft can afford new ammo in quantities large enough to practice.



On the flip side, I love the "flat-top" of Glocks.  Easypeasy sight picture acquisition.  Just ALWAYS use factory ammo.

You do NOT want this:



For concealed carry, my recommendation is a .357 mag. It is a delight, you can afford the ammo, you can just (safely) drop it in your pants pocket.  No need to jack a round up the pipe, no finagling with safeties in an emergency, etc.  Called the Taurus CIA Model 650.  Cost is cheaper BY FAR than Glock (about $450 IIRC)


Offline MtnMan

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2010, 08:40:39 AM »
Can't resist a good handgun discussion, so here (after a busy-week-protracted-absence-from-the-forum) is where MtnMan gets to chime in.  

There is actually a Glock-based solution to both the size and caliber solution - K-Bob feel free to correct me here as it has been a few years, but I carried a Glock 36? in .45 ACP which actually fit in a pocket holster.  Not quite as easy as the Smith 637, but still fit in the pocket and I like the .45.
(By the way, I've never been overly bothered by the .45's recoil, it's actually way less than an airweight with +P rounds in .38)

Having said that, I have to also admit that I traded the Glock for a Taurus Millenium Pro (also in .45) because it gave me 4 extra rounds to carry, although it didn't quite fit in my pocket (a Fobus on the right hip was perfect, though).  This was in response to a perceived increase in threat as I started making frequent innercity trips adjacent to drug-infested neighborhoods - wanted a few extra rounds in case I happend to get caught in a street war going in or out.  I have since traded it as well, and am fairly happy with the Keltec P-11 in 9mm.  Not my favorite carry piece (see below), but I have shot it often enough to be comfortable with its handling and aiming characteristics, and 10 rounds of 9mm is a decent load for a lowered threat level.

I have carried for many years and have tried many models, and my favorite was probably fastmover's suggestion, the 637 airweight was in my pocket for 3 of those years and I reallly miss it.  The revolver carries very sweetly, shoots like a dream, and with careful shot placement has plenty of punch.  If I should locate another at a decent price, the Keltec will be replaced rather instantly.

For those of you about to quote the Phillipine disaster as a negative, remember that we had pretty crappy bullets for the .38 at the turn of the century (and indeed up to the 60's).  A snubby fitted with today's loads is a potent protector, even without going +P, and a revolver avoids many reliability issues right out of the box.  A quick clip, or even a speedloader, adds to the capability.

So, though it would appear that I am all over the place in my carry selection, it is more that I HAVE been all over the place, and if I was going to start all over, as the original poster is, I would buy a S&W 637 or possibly a 642(hammerless) and never look back.  Your mileage may vary, but the .38 snubby was specifically designed for this purpose, and done quite well.  

Are there better calibers?  Yes.  Are there smaller, more concealable guns?  Yes.  Are there situations where I may need/want more power or capacity?  Yes.  But I stand by my choice for the newcomer to concealed carry.  You have a lot to think about, consider, and learn in regards to situational awareness, prevention tactics, exit strategies, and the whole "should I" mindset - caliber and capacity should not be primary concerns at the outset.  The snubby in .38 is more than enough protection platform while you ponder these other issues. 

Having seen Unca's suggestion a second ago, if you want the .357 instead, that's fine.  You can shoot .357 or .38 in it, but beware that recoil with the magnum is best described by the word "punishing" and will slow down follow up shots - I had a somewhat heavier gun in .357 which helped some with the recoil, but it was a real pain for pocket carry due to the additional weight (a german Windicator I believe, about 39 ounces, and recoil was still "stiff" in my opinion).  I probably wouldn't suggest starting out with the full bore loads, but Walt's choice would allow you to go there later.
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Offline MtnMan

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2010, 09:04:42 AM »
In police training by the time they get through telling you all the problems with carrying a fire arm you think you would be better off leaving it at home. The scenario they discuss is what happens if you pull your gun and the guy still wont stop? If you pull it be prepared to use it or dont pull it at all.

A cop goes into a laundro mat and theres a woman screaming. A man has a knife at her throat. The cop pulls his revolver and yells "drop your weapon". Instead the guy pushes the woman away and throws his knife at the cop. The cop fires killing the attacker. He just killed an unarmed man.

I have a bit different take on the situation - as did the policeman, apparently.  He just killed a perpetrator that

a) had a proven, recent, and witnessed propensity and capability for violent confrontation using deadly force
 
b) had just willingly and knowingly attacked an armed police officer with said deadly force

c) is not KNOWN/PROVEN to be unarmed at this point (as a matter of fact, if you willingly throw your visible weapon at me during a confrontation where I have already pulled a gun and warned you, I might easily suppose that you have another weapon available to you which I have not seen yet)

To be sure, point C is where the officer's defense counsel is going to place all of his marbles.  It comes under the sort of situation a homeowner might face in the middle of the night (I have direct experience, both physical and legal with this one).  Said homeowner points gun at (apparently unarmed) intruder and commands "stop" - intruder lunges at homeowner.  You have about 1.5 seconds to consider this -  a Virginia prosecutor agreed that the homeowner may make any of the three following assumptions and still fire in self defense:

1) The intruder IS armed and feels confident or desperate enough to do battle with deadly force
2) The intruder is trained in disarmament techniques and feels confident/desperate enough to attempt same
3) The intruder is not mentally capable of determining the danger posed by your stance, either due to mental defect, drug use, or similar alteration to rational thought and the end result may be that he disarms you and perpetrates violence against you

These are the only possibilities the court considered, and realistically, these are the only ones that make sense - going after someone that is already pointing a gun at you makes no more sense than throwing a knife at that person, and I am under NO obligation to assume that you are unarmed in this situation.  Depending on where this happened and other circumstances not evident from your brief description, the cop may not even be prosecuted, or he may spend the rest of his life in jail.  The perpetrator, however, isn't going to put a knife to anyone's neck EVER again, and I don't know that I have a problem with that.  Should'ves and could'ves don't come into play here - it's done and the outcome is more unfavorable to the criminal than anyone else - more sensible to me than hanging the cop out to dry.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 10:25:16 AM by MtnMan »
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation...but it is a characteristic of wisdom to not do desperate things"
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Offline Holly

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2010, 09:48:20 AM »
Good points, MtnMan.  :yes:  I just served on jury duty this year on a case involving a police officer shooting at an "unarmed" man.  The truth was, the "unarmed" man had blasted the crap out of the police car, took out the radiator and windshield, put holes in the driver's side of the door, then ran out of ammo, tossed the gun out of his window, then started getting out of the car when the officer shot him, slightly wounding him.  The dude tried to say that he was innocent and the office shot him with no provocation.  

The officer calmly stated that he fully believed that the man had additional weapons and was seeking to end the officer's life, as shown by the number of bullet holes in his police car.  I admired the officer's calm attitude.  If someone had shot at me like that, then said they were innocent and unarmed, I would have jumped up and shouted "You are such a liar!" and would have gotten fined or something.  :rofl:

It was kind of sad seeing the officer's young wife sitting there, wiping tears away when they were going through the exhibits.  I think she helped sway the jury more than anything else.  :yes:

I think our country has gotten 'way too namby-pamby with criminals.  I am all for human rights for everyone, but mine are being violated every single day by our judicial system letting criminals go free to hurt and harrass innocent people.  :glare:  

If someone breaks into my home, that action right there tells me they intend harm.  And I am fully prepared, both mentally and physically, to protect myself from that threat.  :yes:  
"Wherever you go, go with all of your heart." ~ Confucius

Offline MtnMan

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2010, 09:51:06 AM »
Amen sister!  I suppose yer gonna have to learn to do that wid a sword when ya get to England?  Or are "fowling pieces" still legal there?
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation...but it is a characteristic of wisdom to not do desperate things"
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Offline Holly

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2010, 09:59:11 AM »
I am going to be SO sad without my snubnose over there!  :rofl: 

They have gun clubs over there, but I think it's mostly for shotguns.  I'll check into it more when I get over there.

When my fiance was here for Thanksgiving, he got to shoot some rifles and shotguns and handguns.  He was instantly hooked.  :woot:
"Wherever you go, go with all of your heart." ~ Confucius

Offline MtnMan

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2010, 10:29:02 AM »
Somehow I can absolutely see you confronting an intruder with an old, highly engraved, double barrel shotgun - no problem! "I sed git!"
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation...but it is a characteristic of wisdom to not do desperate things"
-Henry David Thoreau

Offline Rockhounder

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2010, 10:51:21 AM »
Rocky, why is reloaded ammo considered bad? 

Because you can "hot" load it for maximum damage, say "hot" loading with a hollow point. A lawyer will use that information to paint you as a person who did not have the intent to "protect themselves" but rather had the "intent to kill others". So, say you have a ccw, and you end up having to exercise that right on a person trying to mug you with a knife or gun or other weapon that you fear you life of. So you shoot the guy/gal, and the DA makes a decision that you WERE in fear for your life so no criminal proceedings take place. You are cleared of criminal charges. However, say the family of the dead bad guy decide to bring a civil suit against you for wrongful death. Well, if you used "hot" loads, you're pretty much screwed.

That's why.
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Offline oldfatguy

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2010, 12:44:45 PM »
From my CCW course....
"You don't 'Shoot to kill', you "Shoot to stop the threat'".
"If you truly love Nature, you will find beauty everywhere."  Vincent Van Gogh


Offline oldfatguy

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2010, 01:13:49 PM »
Thanks for the info.  The "Glock Kaboom" seems to be attributed to using reloads that are "hot" - loaded with more or more powerful powder than standard.

Unca Walt, you reccomend a Glock 40?  Can you tell me why?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 10:06:20 PM by oldfatguy »
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Offline Kentucky Bob

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2010, 06:44:47 PM »
I've switched a few times myself, but for the last ? years I've carried two different guns with the changing seasons.  During the summer when it's shorts and t-shirt weather or here at work I normally carry my S&W 642 Airweight in a pocket holster loaded with Federal Hydra Shok +P ammo.  As much as it kicks, it really isn't any worse than a full weight (all steel) J-frame chambered for .357 mag with full loads.  I had a nice S&W 649 .357, and was dumb enough to trade it off.    wacky078.gif

During colder weather when I can hide it better I carry my Colt 1991A1 Compact .45 ACP.  I never felt the need to get a different gun until I tried that damn M&P40, now all I can think of is getting another one!  I even considered--and I'm not proud of this--trading my Kimber SIS to another couple of M&P's!   :scared:  Now even my Colt--named Elvira 'cause she is the Mistress of the Dark--isn't even safe!
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Offline Kentucky Bob

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2010, 06:48:40 PM »
K-Bob feel free to correct me here as it has been a few years, but I carried a Glock 36? in .45 ACP

Yup, sounds about right.  For whatever reason, those compact Glock frames always have felt better to me.  The grip angle feels less pronounced.
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Offline Holly

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2010, 10:16:38 AM »
Because you can "hot" load it for maximum damage, say "hot" loading with a hollow point. A lawyer will use that information to paint you as a person who did not have the intent to "protect themselves" but rather had the "intent to kill others". So, say you have a ccw, and you end up having to exercise that right on a person trying to mug you with a knife or gun or other weapon that you fear you life of. So you shoot the guy/gal, and the DA makes a decision that you WERE in fear for your life so no criminal proceedings take place. You are cleared of criminal charges. However, say the family of the dead bad guy decide to bring a civil suit against you for wrongful death. Well, if you used "hot" loads, you're pretty much screwed.

That's why.

 8| 

Thanks, Rocky.  I guess I can see their point.  But couldn't they say the same thing if I use Federal Premium Hydra-Shok versus average .40 135 grain ammo?
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