February 23, 2017, 05:40:46 AM

Author Topic: Handgun thoughts  (Read 39417 times)

Offline Unca Walt

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2010, 11:01:51 AM »
I am going to be SO sad without my snubnose over there!  :rofl:  

They have gun clubs over there, but I think it's mostly for shotguns.  I'll check into it more when I get over there.

When my fiance was here for Thanksgiving, he got to shoot some rifles and shotguns and handguns.  He was instantly hooked.  :woot:

Yowza.  And the gun has to stay AT the gun club.

I think I may have a solution:  I have a 250-year old CANNON...  Hmmm...  They, oddly, are legal.

Offline Unca Walt

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2010, 11:18:44 AM »
Thanks for the info.  The "Glock Kaboom" seems to be attributed to using reloads that are "hot" - loaded with more or more powerful powder than standard.

Unca Walt, you reccomend a Glock 40?  Can you tell me why?

There is a mathematical table for knockdown ability.  It is called the HATCHER RATING. You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power.

Here is a table for Hatcher value for a buncha calibers... you can see that if you go Glock, .40 is the best Glock.  Note where a 9mm FMJ winds up... EEEK  EEEEK.

Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating

.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1

.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7

.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3

*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8 <-- YIKES!

.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6

*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5

.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54

*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80

10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4[/u]

.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7

*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7

**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7

**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5

.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6

.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2

9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3

9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9

.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3

.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1

.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7

.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2

I have bolded the .44 Hatcher rating.  There is a BIG downside to this hand cannon, and MtnMan has very correctly pointed it out... to wit:

When you fire it, you are NOT ready to fire again for a second or two, as opposed to a S&W Model 39, where you can pump out 16 rounds without a pause.

The other side of that coin is that when you fire the .44, you do NOT have to hit the target.  Anyone in front of the gun is deafened and shocked, and anyone HIT by the bullet is in pieces.  Didja see Lee Ermy fire a .38, .45, and then a .44 Mag into that block of "human jello"?  The .38 went halfway through.  The .45 went through with a tunnel.  The .44 Mag BLEW THE BLOCK AWAY.  (*snork*)  Of all my handguns, it is my fave.

Note that the .40 has a Hatcher rating of over fifty.  ANYTHING over fifty is gonna take down what it hits.  TINS.  That is why if you go Glock, go .40.


Here is the FUN video of Lee Ermey.  Start at 5:30 into the clip, then scoot forward to (*snicker*) 7:30.  



 
Look at EXACTLY <--  !!!  Eight minutes in... YIKES.  Compare it to a .45 back at 5:30 minutes in...

Offline Unca Walt

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2010, 11:31:26 AM »
From my CCW course....
"You don't 'Shoot to kill', you "Shoot to stop the threat'".

Spot on.  But... the threat is only (IMO) stopped when the target stops breathing.

Lotta people think it goes:

"Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord."

The WHOLE quote is:  "Vengeance is Unca Walt's.  It becomes Mine if Walt leaves Me any."

Offline oldfatguy

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2010, 12:41:47 PM »
Thanks for the info, Walt.  I will look into this further.

Am I reading this correctly?

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4[/u]

Isn't this showing the 10MM with slightly higher knockdown power than the .40?
Also, aren't "wad cutters" used only for target shooting?
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Offline Holly

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2010, 07:24:28 PM »
I really liked the video, Unca Walt! :woot: 
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Offline oldfatguy

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2010, 08:08:02 PM »
Reading about the "Hatcher Rating", this was done in the early 1900's and was "estimated" rather than determined by actual shooting. 
This appears to be more realistic:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

And as noted in the footnote:
 "One shot stop %" is the percentage of one shot stops in actual street shootings as culled from police records by Marshall and Sanow"
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Offline MtnMan

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2010, 09:45:30 PM »
Hatcher study has a few little problems, Marshall and Sanow has at least one fatal conceptual flaw, and other studies (gelatin, etc) all can be quoted or misquoted to support or discredit any particular caliber - one such study actually has the .22 lr WINNING the caliber wars hands down, and Marshall Sanow has the lowly .380 coming in at something like 69% in one shot stops, far higher than the much more potent .38 special.

Here's the thing - shooting a bullet from a handgun is still rather simiilar to throwing a rock at someone - just a much faster rock capable of doing lots of damage.  It would behoove you to throw the largest rock you can comfortably throw accurately at the fastest possible speed to ensure maximum damage.

Big slow bullet vs little fast bullet is always gonna be trumped by BIG FAST BULLET which is why the magnums always win, although it should give the 10mm a better track record than has been evidenced by various LEOs. 

At some point, you reach a plane where things level off a bit, and one can decide that "this particular round" is sufficient, especially if carefully placed by a cool, well-practiced shooter.  This is probably the most important of all the "stopping power" points - a bullet that doesn't hit the target has little chance of stopping the threat against which it was launched.  I may be a bit awed by the blast and noise of a full bore .44 going off and missing me from a few yards away (and the shooter may be as well), but not necessarily enough to cease fire, as a matter of fact, I may empty my magazine/cylinder into the center of the .44 shooter out of fear that he may try again ;)

So how does one become that "cool, well-practiced" shooter, capable of determined accuracy under a moment of severe stress?  The phrase well-practiced is the key.  You stop fighting the durned caliber wars, pick something in a decent bullet size, weight, and design, and then you shoot it a whole lot.  At least once a week you burn through a couple of boxes of ammo, shooting from various ranges and positions (twice a week is better) and you do this until you are ACTUALLY good at it, not "good enough". 

I can't overstress this - you are trying to develop a skill which your life and your loved ones' lives may well depend on at some point - don't accept mediocre results - keep training till you get it right.  It is not enough to shoot a couple of clips/cylinders out of that new gun and figure it'll do okay when it's needed - you have no business even carrying it if that's the case, a Louisville slugger would "do okay" with that mindset.  Sorry to sound so admant about this, but I see and talk to people every day who are now carrying concealed in our current SHALL ISSUE states, and the majority of 'em scare the daylights out of me because they know little about guns in general, and even less about the one they have chosen to protect themselves with.

Okay, off the soap box and hope I didn't offend anyone.  Overall point is choose your rock thrower carefully, learn how to use it, and take care of it;  most rock throwers do an admirable job of throwing rocks.
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Offline MtnMan

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2010, 10:01:31 PM »
Couldn't resist one more comment on the above - I had mentioned elsewhere that my 637 smith could produce fist sized groups at 25 yards - but that was after weeks of practice.  The gun could do it (or better) out of the box, took the shooter awhile to learn how to shoot the snubby.  And if I switched back to one now, it would probably take quite a bit of practice to get back to that level.

"Born shooter" may apply to rifle guys (my brother is one I think), but no such thing in the handgun world.  Enjoy your practicing!
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Offline Unca Walt

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2010, 05:28:37 AM »
MtnMan is absolutely spot on.  I qualified Distinguished Expert with the .45 (that's Expert with either hand).  Yeah.  And in a fargin bunker, it took six shots for me to hit a sapper at ten feet.

Offline Kentucky Bob

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2010, 07:22:52 AM »
Thanks for the info, Walt.  I will look into this further.

Am I reading this correctly?

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4[/u]

Isn't this showing the 10MM with slightly higher knockdown power than the .40?
Also, aren't "wad cutters" used only for target shooting?

Yep, the 10mm is a more powerful round and that's why the .40 exists.  The FBI adopted the round after the 1986 Miami shootout, but soon found that the fully loaded 10mm was a bit hot for most shooters.  The .40 S&W was created to replicate the 10mm "reduced" loads but still be able to fit into a 9mm-sized handgun frame.  You can still get a 10mm Glock, but I think the ammo is still pretty expensive compared to a .40.  The grip frame of a 10mm Glock will also have a slightly greater diameter than that of a Glock in .40 or 9mm. 

So there's pro's and con's for whichever you decide on, like someone else said get your hands on several and if you can try a few out.  You specifically mentioned a Glock 19 and a Glock 20, those are really different guns.  The 19 (or 23 in .40cal) are mid-size and easier to conceal than the 20.  Get your hands on as many different guns as you can before you lay your money down. 
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Offline oldfatguy

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2010, 08:21:05 AM »
MtnMan is absolutely spot on.  I qualified Distinguished Expert with the .45 (that's Expert with either hand).  Yeah.  And in a fargin bunker, it took six shots for me to hit a sapper at ten feet.
Ok, what is a "sapper"?
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Offline oldfatguy

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2010, 08:31:09 AM »
This is very helpful discussion.  I wanted to do some background research to get started and then, yes, shoot a number of different handguns to find what is comfortable.  I plan to shoot it quite frequently, so all of this is great info.  Thank you and keep it coming.
"If you truly love Nature, you will find beauty everywhere."  Vincent Van Gogh


Offline MtnMan

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2010, 08:57:30 AM »
Sapper can have a few different meanings, but generally refers to an infiltrator intent on doing sabotage to you, your equipment, or your location.  We used to equip combat engineers with light gear, pistols, and satchel charges to go behind the lines and drop the little "briefcase bombs" down enemy bunkers, into tank hatches, etc (a lot easier to describe than do).

Sometimes we called any enemy infiltrator a sapper, in spite of whether he was trained specifically in this manner or not - we assumed if he was in our AO by himself then he must have snuck in with a specific purpose, so he was a sapper - our efforts were to zap the sapper, so maybe we should have been called zappers? Or even sapperzappers?

Note that Unca Walt was trained and fought in an somewhat earlier era than I, so his definition may be a bit different.
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Offline oldfatguy

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2010, 09:49:26 AM »
Yes, the Glock 29 is a closer comparison to the 19. (10mm vs 9mm)
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Offline Rockhounder

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2010, 10:46:03 AM »
Spot on.  But... the threat is only (IMO) stopped when the target stops breathing.

Lotta people think it goes:

"Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord."

The WHOLE quote is:  "Vengeance is Unca Walt's.  It becomes Mine if Walt leaves Me any."

I'm VERY fond of the ideology of:

"Dead men tell no tales"
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Offline Rockhounder

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2010, 10:49:26 AM »
Good post Mtn Man.
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Offline Rockhounder

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2010, 10:57:35 AM »
I qualified Distinguished Expert with the .45 (that's Expert with either hand)...

I don't want to sway the subject here and hijack OFG's thread subject, but I AM interested in HOW you qualified "expert" with the handgun in your service Unca.

I'm just curious what your training evolution involved (and not questioning your abilities). You mention qualifying with either hand which we (Navy) weren't given the option of. I qualified as "expert" with the handgun. We qualified with the beretta 9mm. We shot with one hand at 15 and 25 yards. We also shot at 5 yards, however, the 5 yard evolution was with 2 hands with the gun down at your midsection (by your bellybutton).
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Offline Rockhounder

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2010, 11:07:32 AM »
There is a mathematical table for knockdown ability.  It is called the HATCHER RATING. You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of 
Look at EXACTLY <--  !!!  Eight minutes in... YIKES.  Compare it to a .45 back at 5:30 minutes in...

LOL! OMG that was freaking awesome! I've NEVER heard Gunny EVER say "I don't want to shoot this gun..." until now!
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Offline Holly

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2010, 02:15:31 PM »
So...I won't go to jail if I zap a sapper in his zipper?  :unsure:
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Offline oldfatguy

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Re: Handgun thoughts
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2010, 02:36:06 PM »
That would make you a sapper zipper zapper.
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